Section 21 — Real Conversations with Atheists: Documented Accounts

The Source

The following accounts are drawn from two sources: Alister McGrath's documented intellectual journey from committed atheism to Christian faith, described in his book The Dawkins Delusion? and in multiple interviews; and from John Lennox's documented encounters with atheist philosophers and scientists at Oxford, described in his book God's Undertaker: Has Science Buried God? and in public debates with Richard Dawkins.

Source: Alister McGrath and Joanna Collicutt McGrath, The Dawkins Delusion? (IVP, 2007). John Lennox, God's Undertaker: Has Science Buried God? (Lion, 2007). John Lennox, documented debate transcripts with Richard Dawkins, available at johnlennox.org.

The Lennox-Dawkins Encounter — Alabama, 2007

John Lennox — Professor of Mathematics at Oxford — debated Richard Dawkins at the University of Alabama. The exchange on the fine-tuning argument is particularly instructive for disciples:

Richard Dawkins: The appearance of design in the universe is an illusion produced by natural selection. We don't need a designer because evolution explains the complexity we observe.

John Lennox: Evolution, even if it explains biological complexity, does not explain the origin of the laws of physics that make evolution possible. You can't explain the existence of the mathematical structure of the universe by appealing to processes that only work within that structure. Natural selection requires a pre-existing universe with the right laws. What explains the laws?

Richard Dawkins: That's a question for physics to answer.

John Lennox: Physics can describe the laws. It cannot explain why those laws exist or why they have the form they do. That is a philosophical and theological question. And the consistent refusal to engage it does not make it go away.

Lennox notes in his account that Dawkins did not have a substantive response to this move. The pattern of the exchange is instructive: Dawkins was most confident when discussing biology, which is his domain. When the conversation moved to the philosophical foundations of physics — why there are laws at all, why those laws are mathematical, why they permit life — the confidence dissipated.

Alister McGrath — From Atheism to Faith

Alister McGrath arrived at Oxford as a convinced Marxist atheist intending to study biochemistry. He was certain that science had made religion obsolete. What he found when he studied the philosophy of science carefully was that the relationship between science and religion was considerably more complex than the popular narrative suggested.

Alister McGrath (reflecting later): I discovered that my atheism was not the conclusion of scientific inquiry. It was a prior philosophical commitment I had brought to scientific inquiry. When I actually examined the arguments for and against God's existence with the same rigor I applied to scientific questions, I found them considerably more compelling than I had expected. The cosmological argument, the fine-tuning argument, the moral argument — none of them are refuted by science. They are philosophical arguments about the ground of science. I had been confusing "science works without assuming God" with "science shows God doesn't exist." Those are very different claims.

McGrath's account is particularly valuable for the disciple because he was not converted by an emotional experience or a personal crisis. He was converted by following the philosophical argument honestly. His testimony is the strongest available evidence that the intellectual case for Christianity is serious — serious enough to move a committed atheist biochemist at Oxford.

★ Disciple Tip: For the scientifically-minded atheist, McGrath's story is often more persuasive than any argument you can make directly. His book The Dawkins Delusion? is short, precise, and written by someone who was exactly where they are. Have it available to give.